Monday, May 9, 2016

Bill the Butcher

After I sat down, all that was missing was a director to yell Action!  That's how many loose players were at the table.

Seat 8, on the button and $300 behind, was a new player.  Seat 9, $150 behind, was a young Indian guy.  Seat 5 and seat 6 had about $125 each, both retirement-age gentlemen.  I don't remember the betting but a flop of 5♣,8♣,2 was good enough for seat 9 to move all-in.  The two older gentlemen had called.  Seat 8 debated for a bit and called.  Turn was a blank and the river 8.  Indian guy didn't show, seat 5 had a flush draw, seat 6 had J,J and seat 8 flipped over 8,10♠.  The table got pretty rowdy after that one and seat 8 became known as the Eight-Ten guy.

He won several more hands but unfortunately I didn't see how he played them.  At one point he was sitting on $1300.  It didn't take long for his stack to drop to $700.  He was playing a lot of hands.

This brings me to the main hand of this post.  I'm in seat 2 with $370 behind and UTG+1.  After inspecting my cards one by one, it was determined that I was in possession of K,K♣.  Seat 1 made it $15.  I threw in $15 and thought surely there will be a raise behind me.  But the universe wouldn't have it and 6 of us saw the flop.  Flop comes down 3,5,6♣ and seat 1 bets $20.  I make it $60 and it folds to Eight-Ten guy, $700 behind.  To my surprise, he puts out $150.

The question that needs to be answered before I make a decision is: what does he have.  Aces? No way.  Straight? I don't think so.  Did he flop a set? Very possible.  Is he on a flush draw and or a straight draw?  He didn't get his nickname by being a rock.  If I call his $150, any betting on the turn and I'll be all-in probably.  Ultimately, it came down to me telling myself this is the Eight-Ten guy and my gut tells me I'm ahead.  So, I go all-in and he calls.  Turn is 3♠ and the river 9.  My opponent flips over 4,K.

I'm no Bill "The Butcher" Cutting (Daniel Day-Lewis) from Gangs of New York, but I butchered this hand.  Looking at the probabilities, I was behind on the flop but a 2-1 favorite on the turn.  A better play would have been to call the $150 and move all-in on the turn.  He was there to gamble so I doubt he was folding even if the odds had changed.

Would really like to hear from the readers on what to do on the flop after being raised.  Not raising pre-flop was a BIG mistake, we all know that.


  1. I'm not going to harp on the lack of 3bet with KK since you already recognized the folly, but I will say this: Why do you continue to expect someone to 3bet at a 1/2 game?
    "Seat 1 made it $15. I threw in $15 and thought surely there will be a raise behind me." $15 is a solid raise and unless your table has been 3bet happy, 3bets are fairly infrequent at the lower stakes.

    As played, I think the hand is fine; he has 15 outs twice, which, unless you can precisely put him on a 4d, you're otherwise ahead of most of a player who calls for stacks with T8o's range. Let's define his flop range given the action: Figure he's playing all suited diamonds, I'd throw 4x hands, 7x hands, 2x hands, sets, overpairs (not including AA, QQ) to the board. Perhaps he's doing this with 6x hands, but I'm not certain - it sounds like in the first hand, seat 8 was not the aggressor at all (so he's likely just calling with TP hands). IMO, put those hands into pokerstove and calculate your odds. I'm pretty sure you're ahead against that range.

    1. As punctuation to drive home the point about limping / slow playing and how it rarely works to your benefit, look at 2 of my recent posts:

    2. There is something more infrequent than 3 bet preflop in low stakes NLHE, and that is KK being ahead of a non allin 4-better on a flop like that. 10 8 guy has shown willingness to call off his stack, but as far as OP knows, he is not a maniac. There is a big difference being calling off your stack and 4 betting.

      Not reraising KK is a small mistake compared to not knowing how the 10 8 guy goes from starting stack to $1300 and back to $700, and for stacking off with KK against a 4 bet. Without a really good read on villain, just fold.

    3. I think I got the terminology wrong but meant the same. I consider the initial bet post flop as a raise, since there is the option to check as opposed to preflop the option is to call the blinds. I know it is different than how most people think of it, sorry for the confusion.